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Thread: Burgundy over Black Oxfords?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I was always told that showing up to court without a tie on was a good way to incur the judge's wrath. Has that changed?
    I am the last attorney to quiz about court happenings as I am a paper pusher, but from what I've seen, the judges just ignored it. State court is such a zoo they had more pressing issues to worry about than attorney attire.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator LesserBlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hebrew Barrister View Post
    I am the last attorney to quiz about court happenings as I am a paper pusher, but from what I've seen, the judges just ignored it. State court is such a zoo they had more pressing issues to worry about than attorney attire.
    I am in court 3+ days per week, exclusively in state court and, until recently, primarily in the lower courts (city court and county justice court), and only once can I recall a male attorney appearing in court (let's differentiate between just physically being in the courtroom and actually "appearing") without a tie. No one openly commented on it but he certainly looked out of place. (It's a different story to just physically be in court to watch a trial or hearing or something like that. I will still wear a jacket but I might wear it with jeans and an open collar, especially if it's a Friday trial or something.)

    Except in the rural city/justice court I practiced in, an hour away from here, where the caseload is so small there was literally one prosecutor in the entire county and I was the lone public defender taking those cases (which comprised just a small fraction of my overall caseload). That prosecutor and another local attorney would show up in just jeans and a button-up shirt all the time. It was sort of mind-boggling. That was mostly for omnibus hearings and other scheduling/status hearings. For real hearings/judge trials that prosecutor would at least wear a jacket and tie, and in the one jury trial I did with him, he did wear a suit. And when I saw him in district court (a higher level state court versus the city/county justice court where I practiced with him) I think he was usually in at least a jacket and tie. And honestly, the clerks and the judge in that court gushed over me all the time, even bought me a Christmas gift, so I don't think it was helping him or hurting me for me to look like an actual professional and him to look like the full-time rancher, part-time lawyer that he basically is. P.S. I won the one jury trial I ever did there (the first misdemeanor jury trial they'd had in 13 years) and won the handful of substantive motions I ever filed there.

    So I would say it's probably a matter of local practice but this tiny little lower court in this tiny little town in the middle of a tiny county of ranchers and sheepherders was most certainly the exception to the rule.

    I certainly wouldn't show up to any court in anything less than a full suit and tie unless and until I became a regular practitioner there. (In fact my attire has recently gotten a lot more conservative as I've transitioned from a misdemeanor to felony caseload and am in front of new judges and in the process of re-establishing the reputation and credibility and working relationships I had developed in my lower courts. I've only just started in on the odd jacket/trouser combos after about 1.5 months of wearing mostly suits to court.)
    Last edited by LesserBlackDog; July 3rd, 2019 at 09:41 AM.
    Ben

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LesserBlackDog View Post
    I am in court 3+ days per week, exclusively in state court and, until recently, primarily in the lower courts (city court and county justice court), and only once can I recall a male attorney appearing in court (let's differentiate between just physically being in the courtroom and actually "appearing") without a tie. No one openly commented on it but he certainly looked out of place. (It's a different story to just physically be in court to watch a trial or hearing or something like that. I will still wear a jacket but I might wear it with jeans and an open collar, especially if it's a Friday trial or something.)

    Except in the rural city/justice court I practiced in, an hour away from here, where the caseload is so small there was literally one prosecutor in the entire county and I was the lone public defender taking those cases (which comprised just a small fraction of my overall caseload). That prosecutor and another local attorney would show up in just jeans and a button-up shirt all the time. It was sort of mind-boggling. That was mostly for omnibus hearings and other scheduling/status hearings. For real hearings/judge trials that prosecutor would at least wear a jacket and tie, and in the one jury trial I did with him, he did wear a suit. And when I saw him in district court (a higher level state court versus the city/county justice court where I practiced with him) I think he was usually in at least a jacket and tie. And honestly, the clerks and the judge in that court gushed over me all the time, even bought me a Christmas gift, so I don't think it was helping him or hurting me for me to look like an actual professional and him to look like the full-time rancher, part-time lawyer that he basically is.

    So I would say it's probably a matter of local practice but this tiny little lower court in this tiny little town in the middle of a tiny county of ranchers and sheepherders was most certainly the exception to the rule.

    I certainly wouldn't show up to any court in anything less than a full suit and tie unless and until I became a regular practitioner there. (In fact my attire has recently gotten a lot more conservative as I've transitioned from a misdemeanor to felony caseload and am in front of new judges.)
    Interesting. Always interesting to me to hear what "real" lawyers do, when my practice is so different than that.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator LesserBlackDog's Avatar
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    I started in private civil litigation for three years and my little boutique firm (2.5 attorneys, .5 staff) had two trials and just a handful of other court appearances in that time. Back in those days it was business casual all day, every day, and when I wore a jacket and/or tie it was primarily for my own edification or for initial client meetings. When we did have to be in court, we typically had weeks if not months of advance notice and prep time. It seems like a lifetime ago but I feel like a full caseload for our firm was like... maybe fifteen or twenty clients who actually had stuff going on, whether that was just contract review or writing demand letters. We had maybe five clients at a time who were actively engaged in litigation.

    It's definitely a different world to be a public defender. I can have anywhere from three to ten hearings in multiple courts on any given day. Even on the days when we're not scheduled to be in court we can end up getting pulled into court on short notice, to cover a hearing for a sick coworker, to cover emergency hearings (involuntary commitments or youth detentions), or just because the court calls over to our office and wants a public defender there to talk to an unrepresented person at an initial appearance or something like that. I've got an "emergency court outfit" - blue blazer, grey pants, white shirt, dark tie - hung up behind my door and have used it on occasion. Now that I'm in felonies I am down to eighty-some active cases and that seems like a tiny number after carrying 150-200 active cases at any given time while I was doing misdemeanors.
    Ben

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWong37 View Post
    I have these shoes and can attest that they are great.
    Beautiful in the photos.
    Intentionally overdressed for almost every occasion.

  6. #26
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    Burgundy shoes go with pretty much anything (although I've never worn green pants) and I think are especially beautiful with navy. So, as others have said, go with burgundy--my favorite shoes are Strands in Merlot. That said, I don't think black has to be boring and there are times when I totally dig combining black shoes with grey and navy trousers or jeans. Next shoe purchase will prob. be black strandmoks.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LesserBlackDog View Post
    I started in private civil litigation for three years and my little boutique firm (2.5 attorneys, .5 staff) had two trials and just a handful of other court appearances in that time. Back in those days it was business casual all day, every day, and when I wore a jacket and/or tie it was primarily for my own edification or for initial client meetings. When we did have to be in court, we typically had weeks if not months of advance notice and prep time. It seems like a lifetime ago but I feel like a full caseload for our firm was like... maybe fifteen or twenty clients who actually had stuff going on, whether that was just contract review or writing demand letters. We had maybe five clients at a time who were actively engaged in litigation.

    It's definitely a different world to be a public defender. I can have anywhere from three to ten hearings in multiple courts on any given day. Even on the days when we're not scheduled to be in court we can end up getting pulled into court on short notice, to cover a hearing for a sick coworker, to cover emergency hearings (involuntary commitments or youth detentions), or just because the court calls over to our office and wants a public defender there to talk to an unrepresented person at an initial appearance or something like that. I've got an "emergency court outfit" - blue blazer, grey pants, white shirt, dark tie - hung up behind my door and have used it on occasion. Now that I'm in felonies I am down to eighty-some active cases and that seems like a tiny number after carrying 150-200 active cases at any given time while I was doing misdemeanors.
    Being a PD has got to be a trip. I can only imagine the things you have to deal with. An old colleague of mine is now a federal PD, and his first case was a gentleman who thought it would be a good idea to email terroristic threats to a government office about what would happen if they didn't approve his claim. Just think that one through...

    I'm a patent attorney. My practice is 100% paper, before the USPTO. I'm like 50% engineer. This said, I would wager I have filed more legal briefs (I'm using the term loosely to mean arguments) before the relevant authority than any trial layer, probably by a factor of 10-50.

    Speaking of... Back to work

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LesserBlackDog View Post
    I started in private civil litigation for three years and my little boutique firm (2.5 attorneys, .5 staff) had two trials and just a handful of other court appearances in that time. Back in those days it was business casual all day, every day, and when I wore a jacket and/or tie it was primarily for my own edification or for initial client meetings. When we did have to be in court, we typically had weeks if not months of advance notice and prep time. It seems like a lifetime ago but I feel like a full caseload for our firm was like... maybe fifteen or twenty clients who actually had stuff going on, whether that was just contract review or writing demand letters. We had maybe five clients at a time who were actively engaged in litigation.

    It's definitely a different world to be a public defender. I can have anywhere from three to ten hearings in multiple courts on any given day. Even on the days when we're not scheduled to be in court we can end up getting pulled into court on short notice, to cover a hearing for a sick coworker, to cover emergency hearings (involuntary commitments or youth detentions), or just because the court calls over to our office and wants a public defender there to talk to an unrepresented person at an initial appearance or something like that. I've got an "emergency court outfit" - blue blazer, grey pants, white shirt, dark tie - hung up behind my door and have used it on occasion. Now that I'm in felonies I am down to eighty-some active cases and that seems like a tiny number after carrying 150-200 active cases at any given time while I was doing misdemeanors.
    Man, your job is so different from mine. I just sit in an office with hundreds of other attorneys and answer client emails all day.

  9. #29
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    i dont own a single black item of clothing. Not a tee shirt, pair of pants, shorts, shoes, shirts.... nothing. Brown, in my opinion, is SO much more versatile.

  10. #30
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    I suppose most of you are caucasian, huh? This evening I went out with dark grey pants and a navy harrington; I wore black shoes because the color looked the best with the combo. Perhaps because my hair is black--I dunno.

    I've been thinking about getting more casual black shoes (all I have is Park Ave), because I've been wearing black shoes more. I wear black shoes probably at least once a week. Not versatile, indeed, but on rare occasions, it's simply the best color.

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