The True Cause of Shoulder Divots: What actually causes shoulder divots?

[dpark]

This was confusing to me at first, because I could not see the diagram, but it makes sense even with just the words. The real cause of shoulder divots is the armhole shape does not conform to the shape of the wearer. The ratio of the armhole height to width does not fit the wearer. If the armhole is too narrow (not wide enough from front to back), then it will pull (front-to-back), and the excess fabric height on the sleeve will collapse, and the sleeve will pull (front-to-back). This will cause the horizontal shoulder divot.

The real cause of shoulder divots is that suit sleeves are skin tight right now. All of the "classic" suit pictures that get trotted out to show that wide shoulders don't have divots also have wide sleeves that allow the arm to move inside the sleeve.

Look at all the "dimple" pictures from the first post. The sleeves are so slim that they're not just divoted but wrinkled all around the upper arm from the stress the fabric is under. A better armhole cut will alleviate the divoting somewhat, but it's going to be nearly impossible to eliminate while the sleeve is so slim. That's why the "size up" advice can actually work. It makes the shoulders wider but more importantly it makes the sleeve wider.

You cannot have a tight cut in the chest and sleeves and expect the one place with empty space (the shoulder) to not wrinkle/divit. The tight cut pulls at the fabric so unless you make the jacket shoulder follow the natural shoulder perfectly (and thus also be tight, and odd-looking on a suit/sports coat), the stress on the fabric will show there.

[ronrob]

This is really helpful, just wondering can taking out shoulder pad give more space to the arm which helps solving the pivot problem at a lesser cost?

I have a guess that all it will do is make it lay worse, but I have one suit I'd be willing to try on. I think you'd have to be willing to put in a smaller pad, at least.

[Sub]

This is really helpful, just wondering can taking out shoulder pad give more space to the arm which helps solving the pivot problem at a lesser cost?

[DocDave]

Great post. How did I miss this the first time it was posted? Anyway, I tend to overlook the shoulder divot problem on my suits. If the rest of the jacket/suit fits me well, I just hope the rest of the people out there will notice that and not focus on the divot issue.

[windmill]

As I mentioned in the other thread - almost no one else will ever notice it, especially if the rest fits well, and you are dressed well.

So true. Until I knew what to look for, I never noticed divots, pulling of the fabric around the waist, too loose a fit in the pants etc. Ignorance is bliss!

[vespertiliovir]

Got a feeling you won't get a response...

lol.

[LosRockets]

Got a feeling you won't get a response...

[Dave Porter]

Great post. Unless I'm spending significant cash, I overlook the shoulder divet problem if it's not too great. I get picky if it's an expensive suit, of course, but otherwise I just call it good.

[MENTION=6633]Duvel[/MENTION] This makes me feel worlds better. The shoulder divots were driving me crazy, but I too am just going to accept it.

[Dave Porter]

[MENTION=10240]LCDR[/MENTION] I found this incredibly helpful and could not agree more. I'm a 40R, but almost every suit jacket and dress shirt has armoholes that are too small for me. I can go up to a 42R, which is more comfortable, but then the jacket is too big and the shoulders are too wide. I've learned to accept that a suit jacket will never fit me comfortably and look good simultaneously unless it is bespoke, which I cannot currently afford. Unfortunate. At least I don't have to wear them too often.

[Thom Olson]

I am tailoring a suit currently and trying to eliminate the divot. YOU ARE SPOT ON :-) If there is extra fabric across the sleeve head (from too much height), it will form a ripple particularly if the sleeve armscye (sleeve hole) does not fit correctly. The hole it not a circle but more egg shaped - and it will be different from person to person depending on the size of the chest (if a guy is a weight lifter or has man boobs - conversely if he has a sway back or overly erect posture). The armscye gets fitted in the checked for fit in bespoke before the sleeve gets finalized - particularly for pattern matching in plaids). In ready-to-wear, the armscye is generally cut HUGE and deep to accomodate many guys but really fits no-one. Also, if the sleeve is cut too tight, it has a tendency to grab on the shirt. And while it accentuates the guns, it has a tendency to cause a divot particularly if the armscye is not fitting and cut too tight. I high armscye is great -- but a narrow one is divot forming.

The chest fronts in Ready to wear are measured and made to accomodate a large enough size with the back taken in if it gets too sloppy. What I have also found is that where I get a suit or who the designer is makes a difference if I fit in their typical demographic. Men's wearhouse or Joseph Banks cater to an older audience - thus the suits are made to suit that typical client. The drop from chest to waist is less (thus the pants are huge and cut kinda sloppy). Zara and HnM are skewed to a younger/hipper client. They are cut lean and tight. And while they look great on a 20-something, and YES, I love their clothes, I am not built to that demographic. Also Italian designers usually design for a leaner silhouette as they themselves are leaner than the typical American. The sleeve (typically form Italians) will be cut tighter and the armhole will be cut higher unless they have a huge following in the US and manufacture specifically with that market in mind. Tommy Hilfiger has a European division and a US division and cuts specifically to each body type.
This was a great topic and a super post. Good job!

[LCDR]

he tried the same two sizes in the napoli, lazio, and washington fits, and there was differing degress of shoulder divots in each fit. Sizing up and down did not affect the divot presence, but going between the various fits did.

Good to know. That supports my feeling that the cut of the model matters more than just the sizing (in terms of minimizing divots).

[90Shilling]

He wore a 42 jacket (broad shoulders) but 31 waist size for suit pants, trousers, jeans, etc... I thought for sure he would have to walk away from the purchase since suitsupply doesn't do mismatched jacket/pant sizes. However, he tried on the 36 pants and the waist was big, but not so much that it couldn't be fixed by tailoring. I interpreted this as suitsupply pants are much slimmer overall than your true waist size.

[TKNumber3]

Great post LCDR. I went suit shopping with a friend at suitsupply recently, and he tried the same two sizes in the napoli, lazio, and washington fits, and there was differing degress of shoulder divots in each fit. Sizing up and down did not affect the divot presence, but going between the various fits did. Eventually he went with the Lazio. Even more perplexing was the pant waist size, which was 36 (he normally wears 31) yet actually was within the limits of being able to be tailored due to how slim suitsupply pants run. This shoulder divot issue, along with my friend's suitsupply experience, highlights the risks in doing purely online suit shopping.

I avoid online suit shopping without a free returns policy, which basically limits me to suitsupply as I'm in Canada (you guys in the US have it so good for online shopping!). When you say he is a 31 waist, I assume you mean in a jean or similar, while his true waist measurment is closer to the suitsupply size? My major annoyance with shopping is vanity sizing, I've tried jeans in anywhere from a 32-36 waist, so finding an accurately stated measurement is a godsend. I'm starting to notice it in shirts as well, I used to be between a L and an XL, and now I've more a L, with a hair towards M in some cuts. Part of that is wearing slimmer clothes, but I also think the L and XL sizes have gotten significantly bigger in the last 5 years.

[90Shilling]

Great post LCDR. I went suit shopping with a friend at suitsupply recently, and he tried the same two sizes in the napoli, lazio, and washington fits, and there was differing degress of shoulder divots in each fit. Sizing up and down did not affect the divot presence, but going between the various fits did. Eventually he went with the Lazio. Even more perplexing was the pant waist size, which was 36 (he normally wears 31) yet actually was within the limits of being able to be tailored due to how slim suitsupply pants run. This shoulder divot issue, along with my friend's suitsupply experience, highlights the risks in doing purely online suit shopping.

[frost]

No, just the ends of the sleeves. Generally speaking, I have to have most of my sleeves tailored 1 - 1.5"

That J.Crew jacket that Joe posted on a Sunday several weeks back had this affect on me (shoulder dimples until I had the ends tailored). Getting the tops of the sleeves tailored is another animal entirely. I've never had to do it, though I do have a top coat from Banana I purchased several years ago that has functioning cuff buttons. That's the only item I might consider having it done on.