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The True Cause of Shoulder Divots: What actually causes shoulder divots?

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    The True Cause of Shoulder Divots: What actually causes shoulder divots?

    Prompted by my recent experience with the Ludlow sport coat, I wanted to post some information about shoulder divots. This is a common problem with suits, sport coats, and blazers. Shoulder divots are the horizontal indentations that you see the the sides of the shoulder. Here is an example:



    The conventional wisdom around here is that this is caused by the jacket being a size too big for the wearer, the shoulders are too wide, there is too much padding, etc. The subsequent advice is to size down.

    I did some (google) research, and I am now convinced that this has nothing to do with it, in most cases. I will now present some evidence to support my conclusion.

    Exhibit A: Pictures from the old days. Cary Grant, Humphrey Bogart, Fred Astaire, and Gary Cooper all wore suits that had quite wide shoulders compared to their body habitus, and they also had decent padding -- yet no shoulder divots.



    Exhibit B: Pictures from these days. The modern slim suits have quite narrow shoulders -- yet some have horrible shoulder divots.



    Exhibit C: The best explanation I found for this was by contributer jeffreyd on styleforum.net. I am no tailor but he seems to know what he is talking about. I will quote directly from him:

    "This one keeps coming up and most people are mistaken about the causes so here's a detailed look at what causes shoulder divots or dents.

    First, the divots have nothing to do with the width of the shoulder- we often hear people making comments about a shoulder being too wide because it is denting but this is not the cause. Look at old photos of Tommy Nutter's work- you can't get much wider than that and they don't dent.

    Second, the divots have nothing to do with the amount of shoulder padding; again, you can tons of it and not have dents, and you can have dents on an unpadded shoulder.

    THIS is what causes the divots.

    The armhole must be cut in the right shape for the body of the wearer. The sleeve is then cut in a very precise relationship to the armhole. In the figure below, the height of the armhole dictates the height of the sleeve cap and the width of the armhole dictates the width of the sleeve cap. We'll say that distance a-b must be equal to e-f and distance c-d must be equal to g-h (for the super geeks, this is not the actual formula but we'll say it is for simplicity).

    If you put on a jacket whose armhole has not been cut wide enough for you, or that the chest pulls because it is too tight (or a host of other reasons the armhole may distort) the armhole will contract- it will get wider and shorter. The sleeve cap is now too long and narrow (a-b is shorter than e-f and c-d is wider than g-h) so it pulls from front to back, and the extra length collapses. THIS is what causes the divot.

    The only way to try to remedy this is to remove the sleeve and shorten the cap (cut away excess length); this will, in some cases, be sufficient, but in many cases you also need some extra width to the sleeve cap, which you will not be able to gain since there is no outlet for it. This is neither easy nor cheap so your average dry-cleaner alterations tailor may not be able to do it.

    The only way to know if a jacket is gong to do this is to try it on. If it dents, try a size up or try a different maker."

    This was confusing to me at first, because I could not see the diagram, but it makes sense even with just the words. The real cause of shoulder divots is the armhole shape does not conform to the shape of the wearer. The ratio of the armhole height to width does not fit the wearer. If the armhole is too narrow (not wide enough from front to back), then it will pull (front-to-back), and the excess fabric height on the sleeve will collapse, and the sleeve will pull (front-to-back). This will cause the horizontal shoulder divot.

    The tailoring solution would be to remove the sleeve from the shoulder and cut off the extra height, so when the armhole pulls front-to-back, the sleeve won't wrinkle. Obviously, this would be an expensive proposition.

    The better option would be to find another brand that makes a suit with an armhole shape that closer conforms to your body, not to size down in the same model.

    I need to accept the fact that the cut of the J.Crew Ludlow is not optimal for me, regardless of the sizing. The gentlemen of the old days had the advantage of bespoke tailoring, but some of us now are left with the challenge of hunting for the best OTR brand to fit our body type.

    #2
    Great post. This makes me better understand why some of my jackets do this and what to look for going forward. I didn't think it was a sizing issue.

    Comment


      #3
      Agreed, great post. Sizing down is not usually an option for OTR, so I live with it. As I mentioned in the other thread - almost no one else will ever notice it, especially if the rest fits well, and you are dressed well.

      Comment


        #4
        I saw this earlier on Style Forum and it was very helpful to avoid the "just size down" argument. I however have recently had a change of heart in the shoulder divot area.

        First, my shoulders are not identical. My left should slopes, which is common for those who are right handed apparently (*citation needed*). Therefore I will sometimes see a shoulder divot only on only my left shoulder, or at least more pronounced on the left shoulder.

        Second, generally anything other than a tiny movement of your arm is going to cause some form of shoulder divot, that fabric has to go somewhere and unlike a t-shirt the padding makes the shoulder stay fairly still. Aiming for zero! shoulder divot while juggling chainsaws in a suit jacket is going to be impossible.

        Third, until I started looking for it, I rarely saw it. Which means most people won't see it. Which means if you can convince yourself that you only need to avoid the MAJOR shoulder divots (which usually seem to be sizing issues) then your suit will still look fine.

        I would love to avoid all possible shoulder divots. But I can't afford bespoke suits, and have yet to find a brand that is perfect. Until then I will aim to minimize it as much as possible, and not focus too much on the tiny imperfections in an otherwise great fitting outfit.

        Comment


          #5
          I agree with the brand to body type argument. I do most of my shopping at banana because I like the style and my wife always shops there and they always have suit jackets that I like but close to 100% have significant shoulder divots when I try them on. Thus I own zero banana suits despite my closet is half banana for everything else.

          Comment


            #6
            The problem is once I notice the shoulder divots in my jackets, it's all I look at, irrespective if anyone else notices it or not.

            Comment


              #7
              Great research LCDR. In my opinion, this all goes back to the same thing that many of us have been preaching for years: we are all built differently, so clothing will not fit us all the same. The best solution is to find a brand that fits you best. I used to have the uneven shoulder sloping problem (right was higher than left I think) as well, until gym work seems to have evened them out. I've also had dual-divots corrected by having the end of my sleeves correctly tailored. This prevented them from pulling so much.

              Good luck!

              Comment


                #8
                Great post. Unless I'm spending significant cash, I overlook the shoulder divet problem if it's not too great. I get picky if it's an expensive suit, of course, but otherwise I just call it good.

                Comment


                  #9
                  frost, how much did it cost to have your sleeve heads tailored? Does it require a specialized tailor?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    No, just the ends of the sleeves. Generally speaking, I have to have most of my sleeves tailored 1 - 1.5"

                    That J.Crew jacket that Joe posted on a Sunday several weeks back had this affect on me (shoulder dimples until I had the ends tailored). Getting the tops of the sleeves tailored is another animal entirely. I've never had to do it, though I do have a top coat from Banana I purchased several years ago that has functioning cuff buttons. That's the only item I might consider having it done on.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Great post LCDR. I went suit shopping with a friend at suitsupply recently, and he tried the same two sizes in the napoli, lazio, and washington fits, and there was differing degress of shoulder divots in each fit. Sizing up and down did not affect the divot presence, but going between the various fits did. Eventually he went with the Lazio. Even more perplexing was the pant waist size, which was 36 (he normally wears 31) yet actually was within the limits of being able to be tailored due to how slim suitsupply pants run. This shoulder divot issue, along with my friend's suitsupply experience, highlights the risks in doing purely online suit shopping.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by 90Shilling View Post
                        Great post LCDR. I went suit shopping with a friend at suitsupply recently, and he tried the same two sizes in the napoli, lazio, and washington fits, and there was differing degress of shoulder divots in each fit. Sizing up and down did not affect the divot presence, but going between the various fits did. Eventually he went with the Lazio. Even more perplexing was the pant waist size, which was 36 (he normally wears 31) yet actually was within the limits of being able to be tailored due to how slim suitsupply pants run. This shoulder divot issue, along with my friend's suitsupply experience, highlights the risks in doing purely online suit shopping.
                        I avoid online suit shopping without a free returns policy, which basically limits me to suitsupply as I'm in Canada (you guys in the US have it so good for online shopping!). When you say he is a 31 waist, I assume you mean in a jean or similar, while his true waist measurment is closer to the suitsupply size? My major annoyance with shopping is vanity sizing, I've tried jeans in anywhere from a 32-36 waist, so finding an accurately stated measurement is a godsend. I'm starting to notice it in shirts as well, I used to be between a L and an XL, and now I've more a L, with a hair towards M in some cuts. Part of that is wearing slimmer clothes, but I also think the L and XL sizes have gotten significantly bigger in the last 5 years.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          He wore a 42 jacket (broad shoulders) but 31 waist size for suit pants, trousers, jeans, etc... I thought for sure he would have to walk away from the purchase since suitsupply doesn't do mismatched jacket/pant sizes. However, he tried on the 36 pants and the waist was big, but not so much that it couldn't be fixed by tailoring. I interpreted this as suitsupply pants are much slimmer overall than your true waist size.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by 90Shilling View Post
                            he tried the same two sizes in the napoli, lazio, and washington fits, and there was differing degress of shoulder divots in each fit. Sizing up and down did not affect the divot presence, but going between the various fits did.
                            Good to know. That supports my feeling that the cut of the model matters more than just the sizing (in terms of minimizing divots).

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I am tailoring a suit currently and trying to eliminate the divot. YOU ARE SPOT ON :-) If there is extra fabric across the sleeve head (from too much height), it will form a ripple particularly if the sleeve armscye (sleeve hole) does not fit correctly. The hole it not a circle but more egg shaped - and it will be different from person to person depending on the size of the chest (if a guy is a weight lifter or has man boobs - conversely if he has a sway back or overly erect posture). The armscye gets fitted in the checked for fit in bespoke before the sleeve gets finalized - particularly for pattern matching in plaids). In ready-to-wear, the armscye is generally cut HUGE and deep to accomodate many guys but really fits no-one. Also, if the sleeve is cut too tight, it has a tendency to grab on the shirt. And while it accentuates the guns, it has a tendency to cause a divot particularly if the armscye is not fitting and cut too tight. I high armscye is great -- but a narrow one is divot forming.

                              The chest fronts in Ready to wear are measured and made to accomodate a large enough size with the back taken in if it gets too sloppy. What I have also found is that where I get a suit or who the designer is makes a difference if I fit in their typical demographic. Men's wearhouse or Joseph Banks cater to an older audience - thus the suits are made to suit that typical client. The drop from chest to waist is less (thus the pants are huge and cut kinda sloppy). Zara and HnM are skewed to a younger/hipper client. They are cut lean and tight. And while they look great on a 20-something, and YES, I love their clothes, I am not built to that demographic. Also Italian designers usually design for a leaner silhouette as they themselves are leaner than the typical American. The sleeve (typically form Italians) will be cut tighter and the armhole will be cut higher unless they have a huge following in the US and manufacture specifically with that market in mind. Tommy Hilfiger has a European division and a US division and cuts specifically to each body type.
                              This was a great topic and a super post. Good job!

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