Comments About Fit - Pervasive Omissions

[diversification]

Alright folks, don your thick skin: this is going to sound negative but I don't mean it as an attack, but rather as a suggestion or request.


I've noticed that most style blogs, forums and the like are plagued by a common problem, to wit, the lack of perspective when commenting on fit. If you click through Dappered Threads, AAAF, SF or any of the major style blogs, you'll see fit show up constantly (duh). That's great, but without context it means nothing.


If your friend asked for help moving "stuff" you wouldn't automatically tell him "oh we can just put it all in the back of my pickup" would you? What if his "some stuff" is one of those obnoxiously long picnic tables, a huge couch, a fridge, and a pool table?


Here's what I'd like to see. For any comments about the fit of a upper body garment, include the following measurements:

Height

Weight

Neck

Sleeve

Arm circumference taken at the mid bicep, mid forearm and wrist.

Chest

Waist

Shoulder


For any comments about lower body garments, include the following measurements:

Height

Weight

Waist (since the pants waist doesn't always sit around your actual waist, you realistically should take 3 measurements: actual waist, a bit below actual waist and low rise waist)

Inseam

Leg circumference taken at 3 or 4 places: 3 places - mid thigh, mid calf, ankle / 4 places - upper thigh, lower thigh, mid calf, ankle


I realize that it takes time to take these measurements, but if you're going to participate, you're already taking time out of your day to do that. Why not take 15 minutes, knock out all the measurements and just save them for easy access so you can just post them at the bottom of any post you make about fit?


I also understand that the leg arm circumference, leg circumference and waist measurements (for pants) are certainly non-traditional. I think you'll also agree that they are essential to consider when judging how a garment fits. The terms "slim fit", "tailored", "tapered", etc SHOULD give a reasonable understanding of what we're looking at, but the truth is that those words are less than useless. Sure, you can tell that LEC tailored shirt should be slimmer than a regular fit, but what does that mean? Technically you could call my car slow if you put it up against a drag racer, but I bet you the cop isn't going to go for that argument after I fly by him doing 90 MPH.


The point is this: when it comes to clothing, being as exact as possible matters. If you have to order online, it matters even more. That's not to say that specifics don't matter if someone can try something on first. After all, they still will need to drive to the store and then choose where to spend there time from there (time is also a finite commodity folks).


Relativity and vagueness have no place when it comes to clothes (despite what most clothing manufacturers seem to think). I suggest we operate with that understanding going forward.

[Sigtweed Corduroy]

Good post. Also, I think mentions of budget is crucial.


"Hey, I need a new wardrobe for a new job, give me some recs" isn't very helpful.

[The Dork]

@diversification - I guess you could say you've fallen victim to your own argument: You post this big huge post on the lack of perspective when commenting on fit, but you don't say with respect to what. Are you talking about people who post pictures of themselves in their suits/shirts/etc. and ask "how does this fit?", or are you talking about someone who starts a thread looking for "a good slim fit shirt", or something else?

[savoyspecial]

Great point man... I think in our profiles on dappered threads, we should all have bio where we can list such crucial information as regards to fit so that we can give much more insightful comments. We all have different bodies, some of us are taller/shorter. Even people that have the same weight/height can have fairly different builds as far as clothes fitting goes. You may carry more weight in your legs and I may carry more in my waist. You may spend all your time in the gym doing bench press and I may spend it running. We could weigh the same but have different builds.

[YackoYak]

I know people don't look there, but I've posted some of my sizes/measurements under "Interests" on my profile. This is where board signatures would come in handy.

[frost]

Your thoughts are well composed, and respected, but I question the usefulness of exact measurements when every clothing manufacturer uses different templates in their designs. There are no direct translations between exact measurements, and miscellaneous OTR clothing. The closest I've seen to such a reference was a chart listing how different designers standardize waist size for vanity fit purposes. This information was far from definitive, as I can attest to the fact that there is plenty of variance among articles of clothing sourced from the same designer. That being said, the old adage stating that "pictures tell a thousand words" holds universally true in this respect, as members can most efficiently deduce dynamic elements of proper fit that include both body type, and a specified garment based on a photograph. I myself am guilty of failing to adhere to such a suggestion, but I will make an effort to do so in the future.

[diversification]

@The Dork,

The omission you note was by design. Indeed the examples you mentioned would require the listing of measurements, as would most discussions of fit. Common sense should be your guide here, and when in question, go ahead and list your measurements just in case. Also, if you're answering a question, keep in mind that the person you're responding to isn't he only one who will read your response. The more perspective and detail you provide, the more likely it is to help others.


@frost,

Indeed, listing information on an OTR piece may not be the most helpful depending on what type of OTR piece we're talking about. You have found one of the exceptions to the 'rule'. Also, I'm not suggesting that people requesting critiquing forgo pictures. I AM suggesting that they include their measurements.


Back to the OTR point you made: as I mentioned in my response to The Dork, we must let common sense be our guide. If I buy a random shirt from the Polo section of Macy's, should I expect it to fit similarly to all other Polo pieces? Of course not. Polo has many different lines and styles which often difficult to identify when buying OTR. What about if I buy a shirt from LE, JCP, BR, JCrew, BB, Macy's, etc? There's a pretty good chance that my item is going to be a piece from one of their current lines that will likely be available online. Do the fit of those lines evolve over time? Absolutely. However, it's my feeling is that we should be able to operate under the assumption that their fit is relatively constant in the near-term. If that assumption is completely incorrect, we may as well tell Joe to close up shop and quit writing because his blog relies heavily on the assumption our experiences with certain pieces will mirror his own.

[nicholascrawford]

I personally would not find this useful. Joe posted his measurements and sizing, but I never refer to it. I just try something on if I liked it in a post and make my own determination. Just speaking for myself, I would never take someone else's advice on a forum to determine what size I should order without pictures. If someone said they are 5'9" and 155 lbs. and wear a S/M/L, it wouldn't even register for me, much less additional information about their measurements.

[diversification]

Be that as it may, there are an awful lot of people here (and at the other forums, blogs, etc) who try to get an idea how something may fit before buying. The details and commentary on fit that I'm suggesting will obviously help those folks.


Further, the type of posts I'm suggesting will help readers notice things that normally they wouldn't think about. For example, when I first realized I needed to look for slimmer fitting shirts, I started reading a slim fitting shirts thread. There were plenty of insightful posts, but almost no one was talking about the sleeves. After a lot of research I bought some shirts that fit my body pretty well, but the arms were too baggy. I ended keeping the shirts because I didn't notice the arms; I had been conditioned to only pay attention to the body. I'm sure it would have been picked up if I posted pictures, but given the amount of reading I had done, I assumed I knew what to look for (and I would have if the type of detail I'm talking about was the norm for those posting about fit).

[ThomasBM]

I believe the basic misunderstanding here is that the people posting are asking how THEIR OWN clothes fit THEM... While it would be handy to know their measurements, that information is so that YOU can know how the OTHER GUYS clothes might fit YOU... But that's not the original guys purpose at all.


But as we are all pretty friendly around here I won't negate your point. It would be helpful for the rest of the community to know measurements but please just keep in mind why someone is originally posting and asking about fit

[Focuspants]

If someone really wanted someone elses measurements, they could always just ask.... I dont think we need a decree that you must post measurements in every thread that contains the word "fit". I am not trying to put you down, but I think demanding things like this of posters is kind of pointless, especially on a board with a community as easygoing as this ones.


If I see someone with a similar build post a picture with an item of clothing I like, I may ask for their measurements, but in most cases measurements arent exactly required or particularly useful...


After all, this isnt a job, its a voluntary community. Add too many rules, or tell people their posts arent worth while because they dont match the overly detailed specifications you require, and people will look elsewhere for something less intimidating and time consuming.

[diversification]

@ThomasBM, I my suggestions aren't specifically aimed at those asking for critiquing on pieces they are trying out or already own (I'm pretty sure I never said that...) My take on those cases is as follows:

If you want critiquing, post pictures. While you're at it, post the measurements I suggested and you may just help the community that's helping you.


Here's a common occurrence where the suggestions I gave are imperative (there are many more).


EXAMPLE:

Poster 1)

"I bought the XXX pea coat from XXX and it fits pretty slim. I got the Large and I'm 6'0" 180 lbs. I've been thinking about checking about the YYY from YYY, anyone have any experience?"


Poster 2)

"Yeah, I tried the YYY from YYY and the medium was too baggy on me. I'm 5'11" and typically wear a 38R jacket."


This conversation is utterly useless to both parties and would be made 100 times better by implementing the advice I've given. Again, there are many more scenarios which would benefit immensely from the advice I'm giving.


Honestly guys, it's feeling like I'm receiving a lot of resistance here and I'm not sure why. What I'm suggesting is increasing the effectiveness of communication and the level of detail provided on this forum (and ideally, other forums and blogs as well). This will help people. Are you guys honestly going to throw dissent my way for suggesting something that would undoubtedly make this community a better place?


To those of you who have posted supporting my OP, I appreciate it. Let's put this into action!

[diversification]

@Focuspants

You make a good point. No one likes decrees, but by the same token no one likes useless posts. In the post I just made you'll see an example of a back and forth that is all too common. Seriously, go poke through a couple of threads and you'll see that almost word for word.


I understand that this isn't you're job, but this also isn't the only style forum going. I'm pointing out a way that members can take steps to improve it (after all, forums are only as good as their members). I don't think that copying and pasting your measurements is really much of a hassle either: you only have to take them once.


Again, I'm not aiming what I'm saying quite as heavily at the "critique what I'm wearing" thread(s).

[Focuspants]

I think the resistance, including from me, is with the issue of mandating a detailed list of measurements to be posted when asking about fit, or deeming a question "unworthy" if it doesnt live up to these specifications. Why is it not okay to just ask someone their measurements if you want them?


I personally dont want to scroll through a list of everyones thigh sizes, bloodtype, favourite sandwich topping, etc... every single thread. If there was a feature where you could add them to your profile, fine, but requiring them be posted in every thread is excessive.


I think this community is based around a casual group of friendly and helpful posters. Once you start having demands like this, it is intimidating, uninviting and offputting to many people, and they dont partake because of it. Look at Styleforum, people are afraid to post there because of the high expectations of every post, and the community. I dont want this heading there is all.


I am for either it being updated in your profile, or leaving the onus on the person asking questions to inquire about them if they deem it necessary.

[diversification]

You keep saying that I'm trying to make this mandatory or decreed. I don't recall saying that. A strong suggestion? Maybe? A request? Definitely. Directly from my OP:

"I don't mean it as an attack, but rather as a suggestion or request."

As such, what I'd envision would be a pinned post about "how to be the best dappered forum member you can be." Keep it light, but explain why such statistics in a signature or profile are extremely helpful.


I also agree about format; the way I listed it would be a pain to see in each thread. Honestly, what I was thinking was either the profile feature or a signature (not in a list style, but in a one after another style).


This type of thing would also keep threads neat by eliminating "what are your measurements" type posts.