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I need a lifting program; can anyone help?

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    #31
    I try to keep my rest between sets at ~1 minute. Seems to me you would lose a lot of the HIIT-like cardio/pulmonary benefits of weightlifting if you spend most of your workout just standing or sitting around. I like a good balance between my work and recovery periods.
    Ben

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      #32
      Originally posted by hornsup84 View Post
      Just curious on the rest amounts being tossed out. You're saying that, when you do squats as part of the 5x5, you'll be doing squats (and taking up a squat rack) for effectively 30+ minutes (up to 50 min, at 10 min rest)?! Also, what exactly are you doing during that 6-10 min? My mental need of being efficient, etc. would drive me to cut down on that time a ton.
      I definitely think (as does Mark Rippetoe) that you need a minimum of 6-8 min of rest per set. When I began at light weights I only took about 2 minutes rest even between squat sets. However, when you are doing a ton of weight, you can hardly stand after a set of squats. I typically take 10 min rest between squat sets and about 8 with everything else. Starting Strength has articles about this. I think they say your like 90% recovered after 6 min.

      I disagree that you should take quick breaks. The goal of resting is to allow yourself enough time so you are able to get up the next set. That's all that matters. Cardio/heart stuff really has nothing to do with gaining strength. Again, google any question you have and there will probably be an SS article about it.

      By the way, I do take up about 45 mins warming up my squats and executing my 3 sets. I could see how this would be a problem at a gym! However, I have my own power rack and workout in my basement! During those 6-10 minutes I usually sit there mindlessly wandering how in the world I am going to lift the next set :-) But then I rest and it happens.

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        #33
        Originally posted by Arête View Post
        I definitely think (as does Mark Rippetoe) that you need a minimum of 6-8 min of rest per set. When I began at light weights I only took about 2 minutes rest even between squat sets. However, when you are doing a ton of weight, you can hardly stand after a set of squats. I typically take 10 min rest between squat sets and about 8 with everything else. Starting Strength has articles about this. I think they say your like 90% recovered after 6 min.

        I disagree that you should take quick breaks. The goal of resting is to allow yourself enough time so you are able to get up the next set. That's all that matters. Cardio/heart stuff really has nothing to do with gaining strength. Again, google any question you have and there will probably be an SS article about it.

        By the way, I do take up about 45 mins warming up my squats and executing my 3 sets. I could see how this would be a problem at a gym! However, I have my own power rack and workout in my basement! During those 6-10 minutes I usually sit there mindlessly wandering how in the world I am going to lift the next set :-) But then I rest and it happens.
        Take all the time you want at home! It's the guys who monopolize the squat racks (which my gym, as well as most here in the city from what I can tell, doesn't have near enough of) for 30 min+ that drive me nuts.

        And I've read Rippetoe and others, wasn't disagreeing with rest per set, more just pointing out the annoying-to-me result of it. And personally, I don't have the patience, but maybe that'll change over time.

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          #34
          Originally posted by hornsup84 View Post
          Just curious on the rest amounts being tossed out. You're saying that, when you do squats as part of the 5x5, you'll be doing squats (and taking up a squat rack) for effectively 30+ minutes (up to 50 min, at 10 min rest)?! Also, what exactly are you doing during that 6-10 min? My mental need of being efficient, etc. would drive me to cut down on that time a ton.
          i listen to a podcast, text people, read stuff online. and yeah, about 3-4 out of my 6 exercises are on the squat rack so i monopolize it for a good chunk of time. I make sure to go on off days/times (and only twice a week), but people have gotten upset at me before. just gotta hope the other squat rack is free. but its gonna take as long as it takes. tues, thurs, fri are the most dead days. right after lunch (130) the gym is dead until the after work rush around 5, but that ends by 630. rainy days, big sport events, other big events (political debates etc) also work well.

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            #35
            All interesting responses.
            [MENTION=13399]DocDave[/MENTION] regarding rest, it depends on what your goal is, which is why you should really sit down and think about what you're trying to do before you pick and try to stick to a program that may not be the best suited for your needs.

            If you pick Starting Strength or Stronglifts, everyone here who's telling you to take 2-min or less between sets for rest are giving you advice that most strength coaches would probably argue isn't optimal for the goals of those two programs. If cardiovascular conditioning is a big concern for you, programs like SL and SS may not be the best suited for you. The point of both of those programs is to get bigger and stronger, not necessarily condition you to do more work in a shorter period of time. Rip will argue that you should rest absolutely as long as you need to, within reason, in order to complete the next set; whether or not you could do it under "x" amount of time is immaterial and not a concern. The goal is to get stronger, not faster at using weights that are under your maximum potential at 100%.

            If you're less concerned with a strength-focused program, you could look at doing the same movements but with lighter loading and more volume, with more of a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy focus.

            As a novice who's going to make novice gains, I don't see why you could burn through a basic SS program within an hour with enough time to spare for some light cool down cardio/accessory work, if you wanted to. It's when you're starting to get prescribed loads at 2xBW+ squatting or whatever, that suddenly you're starting to take longer and longer breaks between sets.

            Determining your working loads and theoretical 1RM can be done using common sense and one of these calculators which should give you a general idea of what your work capacity is. I'd estimate conservatively when fleshing out your programming.

            http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html

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              #36
              Originally posted by Arête View Post

              I disagree that you should take quick breaks. The goal of resting is to allow yourself enough time so you are able to get up the next set. That's all that matters. Cardio/heart stuff really has nothing to do with gaining strength. Again, google any question you have and there will probably be an SS article about it.
              I agree with you on the breaks. However, I think cardiovascular endurance really does have something to do with getting stronger. Take two lifters, Lifter A and Lifter B, both with equal max squats of 455lbs. The only difference is that Lifter A's top end is more compressed than Lifter B, meaning he can do fewer reps of, say 405lbs than Lifter B, and also takes longer to recover between sets. Lifter B, ostensibly, should be able to work harder and faster than Lifter A over the course of a training cycle; more work and time under the bar, barring injuries or athletic potential differences, generally means that the Lifter B should peak higher than Lifter A if all other things in the training cycle are equal.

              I recently moved from being a religious Bill Starr guy to more of a hypertrophic split, with only one day of strength each week; my other two workouts are "bodybuilding/volume" days. Going back to cardio squat volumes and intensity (~12-15 reps/set, ~2 or less min rest periods) kicked my ass at first, but after sticking with this split for 5 months, my increased "cardio" work capacity from all of the volume work absolutely has made me more effective when hitting 1 reppers at 95% and triples at 85-90%.

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                #37
                Originally posted by Arête View Post
                I disagree that you should take quick breaks. The goal of resting is to allow yourself enough time so you are able to get up the next set. That's all that matters. Cardio/heart stuff really has nothing to do with gaining strength. Again, google any question you have and there will probably be an SS article about it.
                Yeah, TBH this is not a real compelling position for those of us who lift for the general health/fitness benefits and not for the sick gainz, bruh.
                Ben

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by LesserBlackDog View Post
                  Yeah, TBH this is not a real compelling position for those of us who lift for the general health/fitness benefits and not for the sick gainz, bruh.
                  I agree heart issues and health are very important! The problem when people are trying to gain strength through a program like SS is that they worry they also need to run 3x a week to keep their heart and cardio in good shape. Running is easy; there is a reason why everyone does it. But, squatting a ton is not easy and people aren't willing to put in the time to get strong first. It's important to build up a solid base of strength first and then worry about the other stuff. If you aren't looking to built a foundation of strength, go ahead and lift light and run 3x a week.

                  I guess it all depends on what your goals are. I use to run all the time (maybe like 5 miles 3x a week), but now I don't see the point in doing that. I think being strong has many more benefits than being like one of those Kenyan marathoners.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Arête View Post
                    Running is easy; there is a reason why everyone does it.
                    Err, that's like saying driving is easy; that's why everyone does it. Or lifting is easy, that's why everyone does it. More to the point if you're running a 3:15 marathon and trying to get down under 3:10, running is most definitely NOT easy.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Arête View Post
                      Running is easy; there is a reason why everyone does it.
                      Err, that's like saying driving is easy; that's why everyone does it. Or lifting is easy, that's why everyone does it. More to the point if you're running a 3:15 marathon and trying to get down under 3:10, running is most definitely NOT easy.

                      [MENTION=12045]Matchbook[/MENTION] I think you're right about getting an idea of what I want to achieve before jumping in. The gym I go to offers some 1:1 planning sessions and they will set you up with a program based on your goals. I think I'll look in to that. I won't need the hand holding for the entire time, but definitely getting some guidance at the start couldn't hurt. Thanks for the tips/suggestions.

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                        #41
                        Personally, I would find a good starting program online and then only ask for a trainer to help you get the form down. You'll need to find a trainer there who actually squats, DLs, etc. At some gyms you can't assume they all do.

                        Not always, but most of the time trainers are terrible with program design and have no idea how to build strong programs with proper progression. Most of them just have you do a bunch of complexes and isolation shit.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by LesserBlackDog View Post
                          Yeah, TBH this is not a real compelling position for those of us who lift for the general health/fitness benefits and not for the sick gainz, bruh.
                          Serious question: If you could tweak or alter your training to complement or improve your athletic performance in other activities by increasing your musculature, why wouldn't you want to? I can think of few instances where being bigger and stronger would be disadvantageous for most people. I'd argue that there are a lot of "average" folks at the gym who could achieve a lot more than they currently are with some easily implementable changes to their training regimens.

                          Originally posted by DocDave View Post
                          [MENTION=12045]Matchbook[/MENTION] I think you're right about getting an idea of what I want to achieve before jumping in. The gym I go to offers some 1:1 planning sessions and they will set you up with a program based on your goals. I think I'll look in to that. I won't need the hand holding for the entire time, but definitely getting some guidance at the start couldn't hurt. Thanks for the tips/suggestions.
                          On the personal trainer note, I'd complement a lot of that advice with your own research. Like the last poster noted, there are a lot of trainers out there that don't really know what they're talking about. I've always had the impression that NASM/NSCA certified trainers without specific experience or specialization in a particular endeavor (e.g. triathlons, physique/bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, etc.) are pretty "meh," at best. Youtube has some great channels (as well as some pretty terrible ones).

                          If you can get by the gymbro culture and the fact that a lot of them are tailoring content to advanced novice/intermediate lifters, young guys like Omar Isuf put out some pretty quality content, knowledge, and programming out there for barbell-specific goals. Not to mention he's pretty believably transparent about the fact that he's not "geared," (using PEDs), so he gives you a general idea of a natural lifter's physical potential. I think that's important, since most people sorely underestimate their potential since they lack good context to frame their programs.

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                            #43
                            Also, you can refer to this calculator to give you a general idea of strength standards. As a starting goal, I'd say the intermediate standard is a good one. Numbers, based on my experience and observations, are pretty in line with the category descriptors.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Matchbook View Post
                              Serious question: If you could tweak or alter your training to complement or improve your athletic performance in other activities by increasing your musculature, why wouldn't you want to? I can think of few instances where being bigger and stronger would be disadvantageous for most people. I'd argue that there are a lot of "average" folks at the gym who could achieve a lot more than they currently are with some easily implementable changes to their training regimens.
                              I commented earlier on that I keep my rest periods relatively short because I want to get some HIIT/cardiovascular benefit while I'm working out. The other poster commented that cardio is pointless in developing strength. My point is that, for those of us whose fitness goals don't revolve solely around sheer strength, there is not much appeal in an approach that focuses solely on strength at the expense of other possible health benefits.

                              And incidentally, strength is probably the least important aspect of fitness in most of my athletic endeavors outside the gym (skiing, hiking, biking, trail running). Cardiovascular conditioning and endurance are way more important. Adding 20 lbs to my bench isn't really going to help me there.
                              Ben

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                                #45
                                There's a correlation between the strength of a given muscle group and one's ability to endure stress/strain of physical activity.

                                And there's two guys in the squat rack having so far a 20źminute conversation without touching the bar let alone weights yet. Ursk.
                                https://www.professorhorseyhead.com

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