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  • frost
    replied


    @greg_s -- sorry, now I've gotten the chance to say my piece. I'm done.

    Leave a comment:


  • frost
    replied


    BenR, you've clearly demonstrated your inability to read and comprehend the content of a post in its entirety. You continue to cry about credit you did nothing but post a leech link to obtain. To make matters worse you attempt to insult me for pointing out your misguided understanding of how private vs. public companies are held accountable for things, and how ToS can be used. The fact that 70% of graduates with a law degree do not have jobs in their field is suddenly less of a mystery. You have quite a large internet mouth for an 130 lb. pip-squeak. We get it. You're angry an Bonobos. Stop buying from them and go spoon your pillow you damn cry baby.

    Leave a comment:


  • hornsup84
    replied


    @BenR - I read your as being slightly condescending toward Frost, to be honest, but if that was not the intention, that's my bad. Condescension aside, stating that the point wasn't about suing / wasn't legal seems a little dishonest, given the discussion of contract law in your post (e.g., "a fairly straightforward breach of contract issue", "potentially illegal" and otherwise regarding performance of a contract). Clearing up the discussion of the legality of what's being done is kind of important in my eyes, regardless of the forum for such discussion and regardless of whether you were giving legal advice or saying that someone should sue. As you said, it's more of a business practices / moral issue than a legal one, and no one should be emailing them saying otherwise (much less without contacting their own legal counsel, should they so desire).


    All that aside, I agree that it does not seem to be in line with their previous customer service approach, and may not be a great move on their part in meeting the needs of, and maintaining a hold on, their current customer base. That being said, I doubt that this move likely affects a large subset of their current customer base; that is, it likely won't affect them in any substantial way even if, for example, all of Dappered's readers stop buying Bonobos.


    As for cancelling the new customer's discount as well, I'm not sure that would fall in line with "punishing the bad actor" (in their eyes), so to speak, as I'm sure it would be easy for a new customer to get a $50 discount during the referral program's life directly from Bonobos (i.e., it'd save the company $50 by giving it directly, which I believe they'd done before back under the program's previous life). I also imagine they'd prefer not to alienate the new subset of their customer base.

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  • saleen
    replied


    The second page of this thread is why I decided to do criminal law and not civil practice. LOL.


    If you're studying for the July bar you definitely need to be hitting those BarBri books! It's about that time.


    Based entirely on substance of legal argument and not at all on manner of argument or approach, I think Hornsup is right. I don't see anything in this thread as particularly shady on Bonobos' part except for 1) taking away credits from a refund for merchandise (which I presume they will correct) and 2) having outrageously priced clothes.


    As Joe would not say, cheers!

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  • greg_s
    replied


    I get that. I don't think I've honestly ever seen a negative comment from you before, Ben. Must be some week. Good luck man.

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  • LesserBlackDog
    replied


    Sorry, Greg. I thought about taking the high ground and ignoring the jabs about "pretending to know more than I do" and "going back and hitting the Barbri books" but it's not even Wednesday and already a very, very long week.


    I think I've made the points I needed to, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • greg_s
    replied


    I'm getting the sense this could go on for awhile. Everyone has had their chance to say their piece. At the end of the day, this is an internet argument about a referral program from a company that we have 0 stock in. Let's bring it down a notch, fellas.

    Leave a comment:


  • jordan
    replied


    BenR, after reading that last post I imagined the jurors, judge and everyone in a courtroom standing up and applauding.

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  • LesserBlackDog
    replied


    Thanks for your condescension, hornsup. Means a lot to everyone here, I'm sure.


    The point is not that people should be going out and suing Bonobos for breach of contract. Even if there were a basis for the claim, it would be pointless to fight over $50. I never said Bonobos doesn't have the right to arbitrarily decide whether Dappered Threads is a coupon site or a social network - they have obviously reserved that right for themselves. They have that discretion. But as far as I'm concerned, it's an abuse of that discretion to say that Dappered Threads is a coupon site rather than a social network or forum.


    But the obnoxious part is that they are still benefiting from the supposed abuse of the referral links. They made the sale. Unless they plan on cancelling the new referred customer sale or discount, then they are still laughing all the way to the bank. I don't care if that's illegal or not. It's an asshole move. If there was really some legitimate moral outrage about the "abuse" of referral links by posting them on forums, then it would logically follow that Bonobos would cancel the abusive use of the code by the new customers, as well. As far as anyone knows, they have not done that.


    The fact of the matter is that they are a newish business trying to build a reputation based on their supposed, self-professed excellent customer service. They can run their business however they want. What it boils down to is whether Bonobos wants to be the "good guy" company that works hard to make things right for their customers, or the company that takes advantage of fine print just because they can. Whichever they choose is up to them and makes no difference to me - except that I have no interest in doing any further business with a company that chooses to be the latter. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. As a new business, their reputation is everything. If they decide not to honor promises they've made based on arbitrary and meaningless distinctions, it's not going to take them very long to squander the good will they've obviously been trying to develop with their customers.


    And on that note, let's get one thing perfectly straight. All the supposed "abusers" and other people "gaming the system" or "beating the house" by posting their referral codes here ARE ALREADY BONOBOS CUSTOMERS. They would not have a referral link to give if they hadn't already given their hard-earned money to Bonobos in the first place. We're not talking about random trolls spamming up the internet to try to get something for nothing. These are folks hoping to get some store credit for making referrals because, after they'd already bought something from Bonobos, BONOBOS TOLD THEM THEY COULD. As far as I can tell, the only one getting something for nothing here is Bonobos itself, which I cannot stress enough, is reaping the benefits of customer-generated advertising but then arbitrarily deciding which customers actually deserve the promised reward.


    But maybe if you'd spent more time reading the subtance of my previous posts and less time deciding you wanted to get into a dick-measuring contest with a lowly law student, you'd have actually gotten the point.

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  • jordan
    replied


    It's obvious the rules are made to protect the companies. I've returned items to a company before and had them tell me it could take as much as 3 months to give my money back. When I asked why they thought they had the right to hold onto my money for that long they said it was company policy......to basically hold someones money hostage for 3 months.


    Anyway, The ninjas added the credit back to my account. Whats left to be seen is whether or not they will honor the milestones of the program (3 referrals= free pants and 6 = free shirt, I hit both but hadn't gotten that credit yet).

    Leave a comment:


  • hornsup84
    replied


    I didn't make up the rules, I just know what they say. And you'd be surprised what you can technically do by writing things on checks / if the other side cashes the check. UCC Articles 2 and 3 are Bs. (That being said, what you suggest wouldn't be a great idea... unless you're down with criminal charges).

    Leave a comment:


  • jordan
    replied


    Awesome....im going to start having my checks printed with some fine print that says "by accepting this check you accept the Terms of Service associated with this check" and in the TOS put "It is the sole discretion of the issuer of this check to determine whether or not the check will be honored when tendered to the bank" and then just cancel every check I write.

    Leave a comment:


  • hornsup84
    replied


    Okay, I usually wouldn't post anything of this length or seriousness on here, but I hate to see when people try to over-lawyer things, and state things in absolutes... which aren't absolute, particularly since you aren't giving the full story here.


    EDIT: T&C = Terms and Conditions, which can be found in the Disclaimer relating to the referral program on the Bonobos website.


    First off, a majority of things, such as rules for participation in a referral program, are arbitrarily made. I finally read the T&C here and under the T&C, (1) an award of any credit requires approval by the Ninjas and (2) the T&C explicitly allow for rescission of credit in certain instances). Your earlier quotation of the rules left out the most important part -- to paraphrase, you cannot post on coupon sites or other websites ... (yadda yadda yadda)... "as determined by us in our sole discretion". They obviously see the posting on Dappered Threads as akin to a coupon site or what have you, evidenced by their taking away credit. Similarly, the T&C (like most T&C do) also state that Bonobos may modify or terminate the program at any time in their sole discretion. Your objective statement that Dappered is "not remotely like RetailMeNot or other coupon sites" is in direct contradiction to what Bonobos has apparently decided in its sole discretion, on the basis of the T&C as stated.


    Whether this is a contract is up for debate too (meeting of the minds? unlikely, as Bonobos didn't intend for you to post on Dappered with your code), but I don't care to debate 1L classes and it's useless to do so. Given their terms and conditions, Bonobos can pretty much do whatever it wants to do with the program, and participation in the program by customers is implicit acceptance of the T&C. I won't state an absolute, unlike you, but I imagine you'd be hard-pressed to find a legitimate court of law that would side with any of the customers on this.


    We all know you're a law student (maybe graduated by now, I'm not sure), but no need to "buddy" people and pretend you know more than you do. Better go back and hit the Barbri books.

    Leave a comment:


  • LesserBlackDog
    replied


    @ frost


    "Again folks, stop trying to hold them to the same standards as you would a Nordstrom."


    ??? I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. I hold all retailers to the same standards. I don't know why Bonobos should get a free pass for anything...?


    "What have you lost? The 4 seconds you took to promote your own code?"


    First of all, it's not so much what the person has lost as what Bonobos has gained at your expense. They gave you a link. They told you if you posted that link and someone used it to make a purchase, you would get $50. Sure, it was maybe only 4 seconds, but now you are left with nothing while Bonobos has used you to make a sale to a new customer.


    Second of all, if you got $50, $100, etc. from your referrals, and it's suddenly gone, then that IS something lost. That's $X in store credit that you would have presumably used to buy something at some point in the future. I suspect a lot of folks here aren't interested in purchasing from Bonobos without store credit, discounts, sales, etc., since the retail prices are so inflated.


    "I don't know where the massive sense of entitlement from some of you comes from."


    I don't know about any massive sense of entitlement - all I see is you being a massive pain for no reason. If you want to ask why people feel entitled to their store credit, there's a simple answer. Because they earned it. Not because they worked their butts off for it. But because Bonobos told them that they would get it if they advertised for them, and they did, and now Bonobos is reneging on their promise because they have arbitrarily decided that referring people on Dappered Threads is somehow significantly different from referring people on Twitter or Facebook.


    This is a fairly straightforward breach of contract issue. Bonobos tells you it will give you $50 in store credit for new-customer referrals on websites like Facebook or Twitter, but not websites like RetailMeNot. You post a link and succeed in making a new-customer sale for Bonobos on Dappered Threads, which is not remotely like RetailMeNot or other coupon sites. Bonobos gives you your credit, then yanks it. You are left with nothing and they have benefited from your effort (however small) by making a sale.


    Obviously you think it's easy to refer new customers. Well, buddy, no one cares what you think. You are not a party to these contracts. Bonobos thinks (or thought) that it's worth $50 in store credit, Bonobos is the one that decided $50 in store credit was an appropriate payment for a new-customer referral, and it's a pretty straight-up assholeish (and potentially illegal) move to not perform their side of the contract when they have already reaped the benefits of the other people performing THEIR side of the contract.


    P.S. I haven't lost my store credit, since I made my referral via Facebook, so I'm not even speaking on my own behalf here.

    Leave a comment:


  • jordan
    replied


    Juan - No notice, it was just gone. I was actually on the site to go ahead and use up my credit and when I got to checkout it wasnt an option. I went to the credit page and it showed all of it had been removed.


    Frost - Here is the problem. As you know I previously discussed the ToS with bonobos ninjas and although they said i violated them (which i dont think I did, but like you said its open to interpretation) they CLEARLY stated in an email to me that they would honor everything I had up to that point. The second problem is that I already had 50$ in credit in my account from returning a shirt I purchased. Thats my money, not referral credit, that they just essentially stole from me. They shouldn't have made false promises to me, and they sure as hell should not have taken my credit from cash.


    Still waiting to hear back from them.

    Leave a comment:

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